Grant Leboff - Why Marketing Matters

[00:00:00] You can't sit in an ivory tower trying to put out products and services for customers without really understanding those customers. And unless you're close to your customers and there are loads of brands that have done this, you can end up being yesterday's news.

[00:00:15] Welcome to Escape The Rat Race Radio, I'm your host Christian Rodwell and this is your ticket to Escape The Nine to Five. For many of your listeners in the early days of the business, they'll almost have no marketing

[00:00:27] and it'll all be sales lead because it'll be about them going to network meetings, meeting people, going to chambers of commerce, shaking people's hands, getting out there, hustling a little bit and making things happen. And that's very time consuming but it's very person-to-person lead.

[00:00:47] Welcome to another episode of Escape The Rat Race Radio, it is 2020 and it's over three years now since I first started recording these podcasts. So thank you so much to those of you that have been listening right from day one. I know there's many of you out there

[00:01:05] and thank you, thank you, thank you for all the support over the last three years. And greetings to anyone who perhaps is even listening for the very first time. This is episode 97. And I just want to share with all of you because I actually have realised

[00:01:23] I haven't told you, I actually host two podcasts now and in fact for most of 2019, I have been hosting two podcasts. So as well as Escape The Rat Race Radio, which you're listening to right now, I also launched another show with my business partner Kevin Whelan from

[00:01:40] Wealth Builders back in February 2019 and that podcast is called Wealth Talk and we've been getting great reviews and it's a bit different because it's Kevin and myself every week talking through the principles of building wealth and we're using

[00:01:56] the seven pillars structure to go through all of the different asset classes that exist that you perhaps might have in your life right now, but perhaps you're under leveraged and you're not even aware that you could be generating recurring income

[00:02:12] streams from things such as your house, your pension, your business and other areas. So if you haven't checked that podcast out and you like the sound of that, then head on over to www.wealthtalk.co.uk and Wealth Talk is all one word if you're searching

[00:02:31] for that online. OK, so let's move on to today's episode and this week my guest is Grant Leibov. Now Grant has been in business now for over 18 years and since quitting his job, his focus has been on addressing the massive changes that are

[00:02:46] taking place in a world that is constantly being introduced to new technologies and an ever evolving worldwide web. Now he continually challenges sales and marketing conventions that have become accepted wisdom but don't necessarily deliver results in today's day and age.

[00:03:04] Now Grant is a highly sought after marketing consultant and speaker, which takes him all over the world and he's a regular contributor to many business magazines and newspapers, including The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, The Financial Times, The Daily Mirror and The Sun.

[00:03:20] And he's appeared on BBC Radio on numerous occasions as well as being featured on a significant number of US radio networks. And Grant's sales and marketing portal, StickyMarketing.com produces a wealth of resources and information on effective sales and marketing

[00:03:38] for organizations and entrepreneurs in what is an ever changing environment. And I definitely recommend you heading on over to StickyMarketing.com to check that out. Now, if you're a regular listener to a Skaterap Race radio, then you'll know

[00:03:51] that my main focus is to help you to take that first step towards building a business that you love and then to help you to learn the necessary skills which will allow you to grow that business and to give

[00:04:04] you the income to be able to choose if you wish to attack your boss or not. Well, my friends, marketing is such an important skill that I believe will help you to reach that goal of yours so much quicker.

[00:04:17] And in today's conversation with Grant, we talk about how it has only been 10 years since the explosion of smartphones and social media and why there has never been a better time than now to start learning how you can capitalize on the digital marketing movement. OK, let's do this.

[00:04:35] Let's head on over to today's conversation. With the founder and author of StickyMarketing, Grant Leibov. So, Grant, welcome to Skaterap Race Radio. How are you doing today? Yeah, I'm good. Thanks for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm not in my normal recording environment today.

[00:04:58] So if anyone's watching this interview on video, then you'll see that I'm hands free standing up in a soundproof booth. But hopefully our audio quality will come through as good as it normally does.

[00:05:10] Now, Grant, it's been a few months that I've been waiting to get you on the show. I'm so glad that you've agreed that you'll hear of us today because you truly are one of the leading experts when it comes to the subject of sales and marketing.

[00:05:23] So I'm curious both myself and for our listeners to find out where did this all begin? Yes, really good question. So I started out just in some sales roles and I've got a background. I studied cognitive behavior and I was asked

[00:05:41] I was being asked to do things in sales roles that just didn't make any sense to me, not from a not from a sales point of view, because I was very inexperienced at the time, but just from a sort of behavioral and psychological world.

[00:05:52] It didn't sort of work for me. So I started doing my own thing and thankfully it worked quite well. And then I found the companies I was working for actually say, well, what are you doing? Can you show us?

[00:06:03] And I started getting involved in training and then that led me into looking at marketing as well and saying, well, I wouldn't do it like this. And I started taking marketing roles and got more and more senior. And eventually that led to me starting my own agency.

[00:06:17] And I'm where I am today. Yes. So was there a time then, Grant, when you would say you were in the rat race and was there a defining moment where you suddenly realized, hey, this isn't for me? Yes. So the defining moment stayed with me forever, actually.

[00:06:31] The defining moment was I had my own budget that I was looking after for a company who I won't name. And I was working with them and I'd asked permission from the board to invest in some new technology with my own budget that had already been signed off.

[00:06:48] And the board said no. I wasn't so it was I felt like I was being asked to do a job and then I wasn't allowed to do it. You know, there were and I wasn't it wasn't extra budget. It was, you know, it was all my allocated budget.

[00:06:59] And at that point, I just walked out that office that day and I thought, I'm not doing this anymore. And that was the defining. I didn't I didn't quit that moment. But that was the kind of defining moment.

[00:07:07] And then there was quite a few months of planning and working out how I was going to fund the business and those kind of things. So that was when I was kind of running two worlds as it were, trying to plan for starting my own business, but obviously

[00:07:20] carrying on doing the job that I was doing at the time until I could eventually sort of call it quits and go my own way. Yeah, now we were chatting just before we started recording and we both we realized we've got a background in music industry.

[00:07:32] And that was really fun talking about that. And you told me you've been in business now for 18 years. And obviously you have seen the market change, you know, in terms of social media just, you know, exploding onto the scene

[00:07:44] kind of around 2008, I suppose is maybe around the time when place like Facebook started popping up. Would that be about right? A little bit earlier, perhaps? Yeah, we know you're right. So I can give you a quick history if you want that social media

[00:07:58] started in 1996 with a network called Six Degrees, although I'd be very surprised if any of your listeners know it. Obviously doesn't exist today. And then there's kind of oldest networks that we still use that your listeners would be very familiar with is LinkedIn,

[00:08:15] which was actually launched in May of 2003 and Facebook, which was launched in February 2004. But when you talk about the explosion of social media in 2008, you are right because really and truly social media didn't explode until 2008, 2009. And the thing that really precipitated that was the iPhone

[00:08:36] in 2007, because until the iPhone was really the first smartphone to be widely adopted in most countries in the world. And until smartphones, you know, social media wasn't that great because if you had to be behind your desktop to message your friends, I mean, what was the point?

[00:08:54] So it was really only once smartphones got widely adopted that social media exploded. So I don't think I mean, I've given you the dates, but actually 2008 thinking about it's 2008, 2000, that 2009, that sort of time is about right. Yeah, I remember actually I was in the music industry

[00:09:11] working for an independent label, which I joined in 2006. And my space was like the big social network at that time. Right, certainly for musicians anyway. And you know, that's obviously disappeared into thin air really now. And then Facebook came and, you know, it was on Twitter.

[00:09:28] And I remember saying at the time, no, this Twitter thing will never, never work, never catch on. But hey, you know, unfortunately, I didn't invest at that stage. But, you know, you're right there. It's interesting to think that it really culminated with the launch

[00:09:43] of mobile phones and your iPhone in particular. And the fact that today, Grant, there's many, many, probably millionaires who are running their business completely just from the palm of their hand. It's incredible, isn't it? The speed of which technology has moved on and obviously marketing

[00:10:03] and being able to do this literally from a mobile phone and run, you know, a business that can generate many, many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars a year. Yeah, 100 percent. And actually, that's the real opportunity for many of your listeners.

[00:10:19] And it's very important to understand what's going on. So the big disruption in the world of communication over the last 20 years, if you like, has really been the fact that today everybody owns their own media channel. That is the point.

[00:10:34] So, you know, if you think about media 15 years ago, really the only people that controlled media was record companies, was publishers, book publishers, newspapers, TV networks, film production companies. And essentially, if you didn't have the patronage,

[00:10:51] you know, if you're an aspiring musician or author or journalist or whatever it was, if you didn't have the patronage of one of those big media organisations, you weren't going to get your stuff heard or seen or listened to or whatever it was.

[00:11:03] It just wasn't going to happen. And then with the onset of smartphones and the web and obviously social media, now everybody has a channel to market. And that is an incredible opportunity to put the business together,

[00:11:20] to have the means of distributing a message and have a value proposition that will work for your customers and to be very successful. The only thing I would say is, and this is the bit that I think sometimes people miss, is it is a media channel.

[00:11:35] And therefore you really do have to start to think in terms of media. And, you know, what's the currency of media? The currency of media is content. So unless you have a great content offering, it doesn't matter what you do,

[00:11:47] unless you have a great content offering and you're having regular content, it's very, very difficult to make those social media channels, that website, anything that we're using be vibrant. And then the other thing you have to think of yourself,

[00:12:00] which will appeal to some of your listeners, I'm sure, and probably be abhorrent to others, is that you are now a media personality because people can come online and check you out and form an opinion

[00:12:12] about you in the same way as you used to about famous people without ever meeting you. Think about it as a business person many years ago. Unless someone interacted you via fax or email or telephone or face to face. People didn't really have an opinion about you.

[00:12:29] Whereas now they'll go on your LinkedIn or your Facebook or your YouTube. Look at what you're posting, look at what you've said about yourself. And they will form an opinion as to whether you're someone worth chatting to or getting in touch with or not.

[00:12:41] And that, again, that gives credible advantages for people. But it's just something people have got to be very mindful of, that they're now kind of running this media business as well as the products and services they're offering.

[00:12:53] So let's address this one then because I know probably some people listening now grant a thinking, oh, they're shuddering at the thought of having to be a face on social media. They just don't want to, right? And that's OK because we all have different personality types and,

[00:13:07] you know, escape the rat race with big fans of wealth dynamics, which was created by Roger Hamilton, who is a previous guest. But there's many, many different psychometric personality tests out there. But, you know, you can't avoid the fact that some people are more

[00:13:19] introverted and they just simply are so outside of their comfort zone when it comes to doing like a Facebook Live or, you know, putting themselves out there as a personal brand. But if you're building a business in this day and age,

[00:13:31] like our listeners are wanting to do, how important is it that you embrace this? Yeah, I think it's vital. I just think it's vital because, you know, almost all buying journeys now in the business to business world

[00:13:46] and in the business consumer world involve some sort of online search. You know, they're all the statistics from the companies like Forrester and Gartner and other researchers will just tell you how important online is. And in order to make your online work, you have to have a presence.

[00:14:00] You have to have content and you have to you have to really be a personality. I'll say it was really interesting. If you think about traditional businesses, think about McDonald's or Coca-Cola, those very traditional, very successful businesses.

[00:14:16] Many people didn't know who the owners or CEOs of those businesses were. You know, Ray Kroc of McDonald's. I don't think many people knew who he was back then. I mean, they've made films about him now and, you know,

[00:14:27] he's probably more famous now than he was when he was, you know, running the business when he took first to get on and franchise the thing. But you think about businesses today, whether it's Jeff Bessels at Amazon or whether it's Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook,

[00:14:42] you know, even Spiegel at Snap at Snap. I think today we do have a more personal view of, you know, businesses, I, you know, this is this is meant in a kind way in order. But I don't think Tim Cook necessarily would have been a household name 20,

[00:15:02] 30 years ago because it doesn't necessarily have the same sort of charisma that Steve Jobs had. But I think today we do want a face to those public companies, especially when in a media driven world, when everybody's got personal media. So I think it has become more important.

[00:15:19] So let's go through, if you don't mind, Grant, just a kind of, you know, a small mini checklist for people now who are in jobs, but they are wanting to obviously escape the job and start their own business.

[00:15:32] And perhaps they don't really have much of a public profile right now for them as an individual. Where should they begin? What are some of the social sites like perhaps a LinkedIn profile, Google profile, you know, a business page on Facebook?

[00:15:46] What are the essential kind of one, two, three that you would advise for someone getting started? So it's a really good question. And I look at it in a slightly different way, but it's a good question.

[00:15:56] What I would do is I would say this, I would ask yourself as a as someone that's putting together a business, I would ask yourself a couple of really important questions, which is what is the problem that I'm solving for people?

[00:16:09] What is the problem that I'm solving for people? And obviously then you've got to be thinking about am I doing it in a compelling way? In other words, there's no point solving a 200 pound problem for a thousand pounds. No, no, no one's going to take that solution.

[00:16:22] So it's not just about solving a problem, but am I doing it in a way that's convenient and effective and interesting for people? So what is the problem I'm solving? So that's the first question to ask. And then the second question, and almost the most important question,

[00:16:37] is who am I solving it for? All right. And you've really got to understand who your target market is. And you need to start as small as you possibly can. People need to think in terms of their smallest viable market, because what people do,

[00:16:53] a lot of people do is let's just say to make it very easy for a second. I'm going to start my accountancy practice, right? And I'm going to solve the problem of having to do all the compliance work

[00:17:02] and the consultancy and understand the finances and all of those things. But I'm going to start my accountancy and then someone and, you know, those kind of professional services still very geographically based. People like to have those providers fairly near them.

[00:17:17] If you're living in London, it's very unlikely your account is going to be based in Aberdeen. So on the basis that you want it local, then what people do is they go, well, who can use an accountant?

[00:17:26] Well, anybody within a 50 mile radius can use me or anybody in a 30 mile radius or whatever it is. So and that's about as targeted as their marketing becomes basically local business people within a 20 or 30 or 50 mile radius, which I would suggest is not very targeted at all.

[00:17:43] So what you really need to think about is who is my smallest viable market? What is the smallest market I can go to where I could meet my commercial targets in that first or second year or whatever, by getting a sensible market share?

[00:17:58] When I say sensible market share, you might as little as 1 percent. You know, so if you do that, the reason why I'm saying that in answer to your question and it sounds like long winded is because once you understand who your target market is,

[00:18:12] then you can start to understand where you need to be from a social network point of view, because obviously the real question is to ask yourself is, where do my customers hang out? And let's just say you decide that your customers,

[00:18:25] you're based in the Northeast and your customers are a small manufacturing business, just for an example, you might say, well, can I join the manufacturer's association and they all belong to you? What are the networking events that that manufacturers association put on?

[00:18:40] What are the networks that they all value and it might be linked in and there might even be some very sort of best spoke forums that only they participate in. And, you know, I see more what I call more general business wouldn't even know

[00:18:52] about those forums necessarily, so they're very specific. So once you understand who that market place is, you can then start to think about where you should be. I mean, as a rule of thumb, it's probably going to be linked, the big ones,

[00:19:06] it's probably going to be linked in Facebook and possibly Instagram as the big three and maybe Twitter. But, you know, you can get very specific because because once you start understanding who that market place is, age, other demographics, vertical market sector geographical location, that may very well affect

[00:19:25] the channels you decide to use. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm glad you brought those two questions up about really honing in and understanding what the problem is, because I find a lot of people who come to skate the rat race, they're just kind of looking for any

[00:19:40] opportunity, you know, almost something to come to them. But you really have to look around you and as you say, what is a problem, a big problem and a bigger problem, right? Then the more money you can make from that, if you can solve it,

[00:19:53] if you can provide a solution. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And also, I mean, I'm sure this isn't lost on your listeners, but think about something you enjoy. You know, if you're going to escape the rat race, to do your own thing,

[00:20:06] then at least make sure it's something you're going to enjoy doing, right? Because, you know, it takes hard work to start a business and make it successful. And you have to put in the hours. I don't think there are many shortcuts.

[00:20:17] So you really want to find something that floats your boat that you enjoy, whether it's the subject area, whether it's the type of work that you're getting involved in, whatever it is that is going to be exciting to you and interesting to you about that.

[00:20:30] But if you can think about what it is that excites me, interests me, and then where's there a problem there that I can help solve? Or, you know, then nothing, you're on for something. Yeah. So, Grant, I want to make the most of our time together

[00:20:43] and your expertise in the area of sales and marketing. I'm going to ask you what may sound like a simple question, but I'd like to ask you nonetheless, is really the relationship between sales and marketing?

[00:20:56] OK. And how should someone who's in the early stages of starting a business actually look at these two areas of their business and approach it so that they don't get overwhelmed and they leverage their time and their resources to best effect?

[00:21:12] Yes. And by the way, it's a great question. Most people in my experience and I'm talking about very senior people in some very large companies do not know the difference between sales and marketing at all, which just makes me astounded really.

[00:21:26] So a lot of people in the business to business world will say that marketing is supposed to generate leads and then sales you use to convert them, which is actually wrong. In other words, that might be, by the way, how a particular business

[00:21:41] utilizes those disciplines or it might be that there is a company out there using marketing to try and generate leads and using sales to close those leads. And that's fine because they're allowed to use those disciplines however they want. It's their business.

[00:21:54] But in terms of the difference between sales and marketing, that's not true at all. And in the consumer world, marketing actually has to sell because none of you, none of your listeners and neither you have walked down the shopping

[00:22:07] aisles at Tesco's or Asda's and been closed by an Andrex salesman for six bog rolls. If you're going to put fluffy labradors on someone's TV screen, that's actually got a result in people putting toilet roll in their

[00:22:19] trolleys in their shopping trolleys and shopping carts because if they don't, you know, what are you doing it for? So I'll tell you the difference between sales and marketing is very, very simple. Marketing, this is from a communications point of view, marketing is brand to person communication.

[00:22:37] So your website is a marketing tool because it's a brand tool. It's the company talking to customers. If you were to do a direct mail or an advert, that would be the company talking to their customers. So all of that would be called marketing.

[00:22:52] Sales or selling is person to person communication. So once you get on the telephone, you're actually in a sales situation. Once you go to a networking event, you're really doing this. It's a sales situation. Doesn't mean you're literally flaunting your stuff and trying to close

[00:23:08] people there at the networking breakfast, but you are nevertheless in a sales situation because selling is person to person and marketing is brand to person. Now, why do you need sales? Because basically sales is needed person to person is needed where the risk of

[00:23:25] purchase will not allow someone or will be a will stop someone purchasing from a marketing point of view. So in other words, I'm quite comfortable to go to a supermarket and throw in a new tomato soup or a new soft drink that I've never tried because the risk

[00:23:42] is really small, isn't it? You know, I spent a few quid on it. If I take it home and I pour the drink and I don't like it, I don't buy it again. It doesn't matter. But if you think about in the consumer world,

[00:23:52] some of those big ticket items, people still want their assurance of a face to face meeting. You can buy a car online these days. And if you go to a manufacturer like a Volkswagen, a BMW, a Ford, a Mercedes or whatever, these are reputable companies.

[00:24:06] And yet still many people want the reassurance of going to a garage and shaking someone's hand and looking into their eyes and, you know, knowing that they're getting a proper, you know, proper product. I'm going to get the service around that.

[00:24:19] Once you get into the business to business world, the risk is even higher because when you're hiring an accountant or a lawyer or a recruitment company or a software platform, these things are often central to your business. And therefore you want that human interaction in order to,

[00:24:36] you know, get the deal in order to do the deal. So many of your listeners will be thinking about this, thinking actually with what I offer, am I able to sell that remotely? Do I need to be there? Can it be all marketing?

[00:24:48] Can it be all brand led or actually if I'm selling a professional service or whatever else, if the, and my customers going to need to interact with me in some way, be over a Skype call, to be honest, or be it in a face to face

[00:25:02] meeting, either way, then you need to sell as part of that. And then you have to understand how am I going to generate those opportunities? So I would suggest that for many of your listeners, not all of them,

[00:25:14] but for many of your listeners in the early days of the business, they'll almost have no marketing and will be sales led because it'll be about them going to network meetings, meeting people, going to chambers of commerce

[00:25:25] or whatever, shaking people's hands, getting out there, hustling a little bit and making things happen. And that's very time consuming, but it's very person to person led. And it might be that they don't have the budgets to be doing sort of great branding messages in the early days.

[00:25:41] You know, it might be that the only marketing is a one page or two page WordPress site, which is more about the company. And that's fine. So it's just a question of understanding the difference between those and then which ones you're going to utilize. They're both expensive.

[00:25:57] Marketing costs more money. Sales costs more time. Hey, this is Chris Ducker. Hey, I'm Joe Seton. Hi, I'm Brandon Block. Hi, this is Piri Marshall. And you are listening to Escape the Rat Race Radio. Radio.

[00:26:13] This is something I was taught in the past and, you know, it resonated with me, Grant, is that even when you're looking, especially with like coaches, consultants, right, who perhaps want to create an online program to teach something that

[00:26:27] they're passionate about, that they've got experience in and they go straight to the online format. But I was always told, you know, begin one to one, you know, teach it to one person, get the result for one person.

[00:26:39] And then that person can be your case study, your testimonial, your marketing, you know, for the for the next person that you perhaps then do charge a small amount and you kind of step it up like that.

[00:26:50] And when you've done that one to one, then you can move on to one to few. So a small group, perhaps. And then that's when you know that you've proven the concept and you can start to then package that up and sell that one to many through online

[00:27:04] mediums. What would you say to that? Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point. And actually, you're going to a much deeper point, which I think people miss, which is really, really important. So I would say this, right, the only point of marketing is to create a customer

[00:27:20] that is the only point of marketing. You only market your business to create a customer. Right. And therefore, if you want to make sure that you have an amazing business, you have to be really close to your customers. There is no you can't sit in an ivory tower

[00:27:35] trying to put out products and services for customers without really understanding those customers. And therefore, what you're saying, I think you can have an online portal with loads of video and products and training courses and services and all delivered remotely.

[00:27:50] And it might be amazing and it might make you millions and it's all fantastic. But I would still say you need as the business owner to be getting out there and meeting the very people you're dealing with on a daily, weekly basis

[00:28:04] to understand what's driving them, how the market's changing, what the challenges they're facing because markets evolve. Right. And unless you're close to your customers and there are loads of brands that have done this, you can end up being yesterday's news

[00:28:17] because you have a great value proposition for a while. And then a competitor or someone else comes into the market who just does it better than you because you weren't close enough to those customers.

[00:28:27] And I would say, and therefore to go to your point, in the early days of a business, there's a lot of value in delivering some of that one to one stuff in the earth because you'll learn so much about the customers that you're

[00:28:39] dealing with, what drives them, what they want, what's driving the market. And it will just make your marketing, your value proposition, your offering so much better. And I would say even if you're running a multi-million pound wonderful business, the best businesses out there are the ones where

[00:28:56] the senior management, the people making the decisions are out there talking to their customers, watching their customers and on a regular, regular basis. And if you can do that and there's lots of mechanisms for doing it,

[00:29:09] you know, if you sell your products in a retail store, go and watch the people in the retail store where they're buying your products and see how they interact with their product and go and talk to them while they're

[00:29:18] buying and say, hey, why are you looking at that and not that? Why do you why does that appeal and not that one? Unless you're very close to your customers all the time, your marketing will become irrelevant.

[00:29:30] Yeah, we had Xavier Collins as my guest on the previous episode of Skate Rack Race Radio Grant and Xavier was instrumental in the setting up of Deliveroo here in the UK. And I recall reading and seeing somewhere that the owners of Deliveroo

[00:29:46] still got out there and did deliveries every month just to see how it was for their, you know, their staff essentially out on the roads. What was the experience like? What were the customers saying that the process is?

[00:29:59] So what you've just said, you know, you've got to stay in touch, haven't you? Yeah, 100 percent. I learned one of my most valuable business lessons ever when I was 14 years old and I didn't even know I was learning it.

[00:30:11] And that was I don't know if you remember, but in the early days of Virgin, if you bought a business class ticket, they used to give you free vouchers for an economy ticket. And my mother at the time worked for a business where the owner of the

[00:30:23] business was going to South Korea a lot and he was getting a load of these vouchers. They were sort of lumped in his drawer. And my mum was desperate to get hold of them because we got family in America

[00:30:32] and she wanted to go and see them and take some of us and some of the children at different times. And basically these tickets, it was in the days where paying tax was very low and so these tickets were really properly free, but they were

[00:30:44] standby tickets, but you could pay 50 pounds, I think, to secure your seat, which is nothing to go to New York. Right? And my mum rang up the Virgin to say, you know, three of us are going, my dad, my mother and myself,

[00:30:57] we're going to pay the 50 pounds and the guy at Virgin said, oh, don't bother mad at him. The plane's pretty much empty. You're just wasting 150 pounds. You might as well just turn up and go standby. So of course she said, thank you very much and did that.

[00:31:11] Anyway, we got to the airport and the plane was full because some and what happened is some group booking had come along and then and so they only had two seats and my dad couldn't get on the flight.

[00:31:20] We're only supposed to be going to see my cousin for the weekend, etc., etc. But you know who was walking around at the check-in desk was Branson. Right? Richard Branson was walking around and he saw what was going on. I mean, he couldn't know what was going on,

[00:31:32] but he could see the deliberations at the check-in desk and he came over and he took the time to find out what had gone on, why it had gone wrong, how it had gone wrong, apart from the fact that he made it up to my

[00:31:42] parents and to this very day, they still fly Virgin when they can. And that stuck with them. But he knew what was going on on those counters. Now, how many bosses would have even known about something like that?

[00:31:53] It's such a small matter in the grand scheme of running a business. But it's those interactions with customers that give you a real feel for what's going on and make sure you're making the right decisions about your company, your offering, your marketing messaging, etc.

[00:32:07] So you cannot you cannot emphasize it enough. You have to stay close to your customer. And it's one of the huge advantages when you are small, isn't it? And many of our listeners have probably got Facebook groups. They're building up their start of their communities.

[00:32:23] And when you've just got your first few hundred people in the group, it's actually a lot more engaged. You know, you know people in there by name and you find as your social networks grow, your communities grow, it's actually

[00:32:38] a lot harder to manage and a lot harder to stay in touch. So, you know, if you're listening now and you're in the early stages, you know, take advantage of that, you know, because it's almost like the glory days. Right? Yeah, so you just got to stay close

[00:32:52] and learn and you're always learning because even if you think you know your customers brilliantly and I'm sure many of your listeners do, the challenge always is that they evolve. Nothing stays the same. Right. Industry has changed. Markets change. Offerings change. Customer change. Cultures change.

[00:33:08] You know, culture changes. What was it? You think about what was socially acceptable ten years ago and what is today, think about corporate social responsibility. Think about environmental issues today that are much more important. So, you know, culturally we move on and that does affect different businesses

[00:33:24] and their offerings and therefore the closer you can be to your customers, the more relevant you make sure you stay. Yeah. So talking about change then. So, Grant, you've written four books. I believe you got the fifth book out literally last week. Is that right?

[00:33:37] Yeah, just literally just come out last few days. In the UK comes out in the States in a couple more weeks time. But yeah, so it's been quite a number of years since you first released the book number one to now.

[00:33:49] So tell us a little bit about that journey of the books and how you've seen things change and now how you're obviously publishing that to help people with their own businesses in the area of sales and marketing.

[00:34:00] Yeah. Well, so the changes for all of us have just been phenomenal. And since I started in business, I'll tell you my first ever book was called Sales Therapy and it came out before smartphones were widely adopted. So it was out before the iPhone.

[00:34:17] So if you just think about that for a minute, you know, social media was in its infancy, no one was really considering it. I didn't really address social media as a big business issue in my first book.

[00:34:27] I wasn't mobile phones existed, of course, but no one was talking about smartphones at the time and they hadn't really impacted on business. So, you know, that was book one. And then you saw the explosion with the smartphones and the explosion of social

[00:34:41] media as you said earlier in 2008, 2009, 2010 and how that really changed information distribution and the empowerment of customers who were suddenly using Facebook and then later Twitter to complain. The way that companies have embraced those platforms to use for customer

[00:35:01] service as well and the immediacy of what we expect today. If you just think about things like going on a website and getting a chat bot for your frequently asked questions and those kind of stuff. So I think customer expectations are much higher today than they were.

[00:35:18] The immediacy and the relevance in the context in what, you know, 20 years ago, nothing was contextual, was it? In the way it is today, you know, you've got these sort of random direct emails through for an offering that really wasn't anywhere in your sphere at the time.

[00:35:32] And you kind of threw it away and thought, that's a waste of my time. Today, you go online and you're doing searches. And because everything is data led and keyword led, the sort of promotions that you're getting and the messages you're getting

[00:35:44] fed are so much more relevant and we expect that level of we don't want the data abuse, but we want the relevance, right? And so everything's changed and it's so much quicker today. And of course, you're now dealing with customers who are so much more savvy

[00:35:58] about all of this because, you know, again, 2007, 2008, all of us were learning about. So I'm not saying we're not learning now, but I'm just saying you're now working with with customers, depending on what your offering is, who can't remember a time before social media existed that don't remember

[00:36:16] a world without a smartphone. And so their expectations and the way that they're using this equipment is just so much different. And so the changes in in in a relatively short space of time are just, you know, it's not the change itself.

[00:36:32] I think that's an issue because, you know, the world always changes. It's the speed in which it's happened has been just, you know, phenomenal. Yeah. And your latest book that's out now, The Myths of Marketing.

[00:36:45] So can you unveil what are some of the top myths that people often, you know, Yeah. Well, interestingly enough, we've covered one inadvertently already, which is about the whole sales and marketing, you know, you know, the difference between sales and marketing and people thinking that

[00:37:02] sales is sort of closing and marketing's lead generation. And we've talked about that. But myths around brand and what a brand is and what brand achieves. And everybody's got a brand. You know, one of the things I address in the book is that

[00:37:15] people think if they've got a logo and a name, they've got a brand. And that is simply not the case at all. We explore that in the book and then the way that marketing's just changed in terms of, you know, marketing's just about communications, isn't it?

[00:37:32] Well, no, it's not. It's more than that. It's about your value offer because marketing's about creating a customer. So I think marketing's one of those things. I always think marketing's a bit like football, you know, where because it's so accessible and because we experience it all the time,

[00:37:48] you know, every every fan thinks they can pick a better team than the manager. Right? Even though the manager's been paid millions to do it and you're kind of I'm sitting in my armchair, you know, having not seen the players at training,

[00:37:58] not knowing the politics, their emotional state, anything else at all. Not thought about the tactics that we're playing against the opposition. But I'm sitting there going, why has he picked him? Why has he done that? You know, we're all sort of,

[00:38:11] you know, we're all commentators when it comes to that. And marketing's a little bit like that because it's so accessible, because we're all involved in advertising. We receive advertising, we engage with marketing messages probably every single day

[00:38:24] of our lives. Everybody's then got an opinion, which I think they're allowed to have. Why not? But I think that spurns then a lot of kind of myths and lies and untruths that because they're repeated so often, people start to believe

[00:38:37] my concern for your listeners would be that that doesn't then prevent them from being as successful as they could be because they're going down a path that actually isn't the case. And that's why the book's there really.

[00:38:49] The book is there to just say to people that perhaps everybody knows a bit about marketing, but people are going to take this a bit more seriously. Hey, these things aren't true and this is why and this is what you really need

[00:38:59] to be thinking about just to give people a steer in the right direction. Yeah. And you've kindly given two copies or you are giving two copies away to our listeners. So anyone who is checking this out right now and it

[00:39:12] isn't yet the 17th for January because that's when this will close, but they can get a signed copy of the new book from you, Grant. Right? Yeah, we give you way to sign copies absolutely before the 17th to Jan.

[00:39:24] People can apply and two people are going to get a signed copy of the book. That's awesome. So all you need to do is head over to etr.online. slash podcast 97 and you're going to see the video from today's

[00:39:38] conversation and also the opportunity there to pop your name and email and being with chance to win one of those signed copies from Grant. So, Grant, before I let you go and it's been such a great conversation today,

[00:39:50] there's just so many different angles and directions we could take this. But I want to know what's working right now? What are some of the things that you're seeing creeping in? Maybe it's chatbots, maybe it's some other things, but what are some of our

[00:40:02] listeners should be keeping their eye out for where marketing is going in the next sort of 12 months or so? Yeah, it's really interesting. So a couple of things that I'd say to your listeners, which I think hopefully will be useful for them is one is think about the

[00:40:16] immediacy of everything. Everybody wants everything now and you can't obviously always deliver that, especially when you're a one person business or a two person business, you know, you can't be by the phone on your website 24 seven.

[00:40:28] So some of those very basic tools like a chatbot for basic frequently asked questions or, you know, automation just so when someone does a contact us. Very simple automated message saying, thank you very much. We've got your message.

[00:40:43] We'll respond in the next 24 hours or how it, you know, obviously the less is better, but let's say the next 24 hours because what people don't like is the uncertainty that they receive my message. Didn't they receive my message?

[00:40:54] Have they, you know, just getting an auto response that says, got your message, thank you very much. We'll be in touch. Automatically puts a customer's mind at ease and, you know, gives them a better experience. So any of those kind of auto responders chatbots, very basic tools,

[00:41:09] nothing really expensive or difficult, but can really make a difference, especially when you haven't got the manpower as it were, because there is only one or maybe two of you in the business. I think that's really, really important to leverage.

[00:41:22] So I think you should really think about that. The other thing I would say to people is the accessibility of video today. Video enables you to create relationships with your audience in the way that you're doing in a very, very accessible way.

[00:41:38] And, you know, whether it's using Skype in the way that we are today or whether it's using, you know, on a good Android phone or a good iPhone, you've got good video now you can go and buy a clip on mic for 20 pounds

[00:41:49] because it's always to make sure that you've got the right audio. It's not the picture quality. It's the audio quality. And you're walking around with a camera where you can talk to the camera

[00:41:58] and put a one minute video together, which you can post on social media or post on a LinkedIn profile, post on a website and really start to create one, some value for your audience around some insights and information and tips that

[00:42:10] you can give, but two, start to develop that relationship with your audience, with your community. And again, you know, you probably, probably virtually most of your listeners, I would imagine, all your listeners are walking around with a smartphone already with a video

[00:42:24] camera on it. So, you know, for 20 quid investment of a mic, they've suddenly got a really powerful relationship building tool with their audience as well. So that would be something else I'd really think that they should, they should try and utilise. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[00:42:37] And we talked earlier about, you know, some people just not feeling comfortable. But you know what? If you're a business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, you've got to push out, you've got to push through that comfort zone. You know what I say, Christian, it's very, very important.

[00:42:50] If you think about this, and I think your listeners should think about it like this, 30 or 40 years ago, you know, you went on courses to do telephone training techniques, because if you couldn't use a telephone well, you just couldn't be in business, right?

[00:43:03] It doesn't matter how introverted you were, you needed to have and be able to have a conversation with a customer or a telephone and come across OK. And that was a prerequisite. And some people could do it naturally. And other people went on these courses to get comfortable,

[00:43:16] because it was so important. I would say video is the new telephone. I think video is so ubiquitous, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, your own website, walking around with a camera all the time. I think video is the new telephone.

[00:43:30] And I would implore all of your listeners to get comfortable with a camera, either go in a bit of training if that's what you need to do or just practice at home making loads of videos doesn't cost anything.

[00:43:40] Sit there and make loads of videos with your mates and just get comfortable. But I think it's a really powerful tool if it's used well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. OK, so, Grant, pulling things to a close here. And I'm going to ask you the final question,

[00:43:56] which I always ask my guests and this is for those people who are listening to our conversation right now and they are perhaps stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work or they're squashed up on the underground and they know that they need to change.

[00:44:10] They know they need to get out of this nine to five cycle and they know there's something so much bigger inside waiting for them. What would you like to say to those people now? Yeah, just just do it. Just get out your own way. Don't make any excuses.

[00:44:26] Just do it. You know, it's the fear of the unknown is always far worse than the reality of doing it. And I would say for most people that I know in business, once they get out and they start doing it and they're living that dream,

[00:44:39] they don't know why they didn't do it five years earlier and what was holding them back. So I would just say take the shackles off. You know, it's a new year and just get out your own way.

[00:44:51] I mean, I often, you know, we always look for excuses or often look for excuses in our lives. I'm as guilty of it as everybody else. But actually when push comes to shove, normally you're the one in your own

[00:45:05] way if you like and if you can get out your own way and just let it happen. I think people never look back. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we're recording this now. It's kind of a week before Christmas.

[00:45:18] By the time this goes live, I think it will just be into the new year. And that's five year anniversary of when I sacked my boss when I left the music industry behind. And you know what? Those five years are going to go by regardless.

[00:45:31] So you're going to sit in that same position you're in now and let the next five years pass you by and then look back and say, what if? Or are you going to make the change now and then look back and say, wow,

[00:45:41] I'm so glad that I did it when I did. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Grant, it's been awesome speaking to you today. Thank you so much and good luck with the book release. You know, it's a cracker and I'm looking forward to two of our listeners

[00:45:54] being able to receive their copy really soon. Yeah, great. Thanks very much. Take care. Thanks. Hi, it's Christian here and I want to invite you to join the Escape the Rat Race membership site completely for free. There's no hidden upsells or monthly subscription fees.

[00:46:13] You can join with just a name and email address. And inside you'll get access to the following. A free copy of my book, Sack Your Boss, The Ultimate Guide to Escape Your 9-5. Over 50 video interviews of me and my guests on Escape the Rat Race Radio,

[00:46:29] including people such as Seth Godin, Perry Marshall, Rob Moore and Chris Ducker. And the full video recordings from over 30 of my Escape the Rat Race London meet up events with world famous speakers covering a whole host of ideas to help you begin your own escape plan.

[00:46:47] Plus, I'm also going to give you a 25% discount on my brand new five step freedom formula online course where I teach you step by step the process you need to follow if you're serious about breaking free

[00:47:02] of your 9-5 and starting a business which can give you the freedom to focus on the things in your life which are more important to you. This is a collection of the very best content from Escape the Rat Race

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